The Outsider: How Food Writer Nicole Taylor Broke Through

Season 2 of Life Changing with Dori Fern opens with an intimate conversation between Dori and James Beard Award-nominated food writer, Nicole Taylor, the author of cookbooks including the modern Juneteenth classic, Watermelon & Red Birds. Dori and Nicole met around 2010 at BK Swappers, a popular Brooklyn-based food swap that helped put the borough's foodie-ism on the map and paved the way for today's social food culture. They talk about that time and Nicole shares surprising details about her life and journey in the food industry, including the role timing, intuition, and confidence played in her path. The Georgia native also discusses the activism that has shaped her life and opens up about her family, including her relationship with her incarcerated brother. At its heart, this is a conversation between two very different, self-defined outsiders in food media: one (Taylor) who still sees herself that way even from the inside, and the other (Fern), who no longer works in the food industry but has come to peace with where she -- and it -- fits into her life. This is what community looks like.

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Transcript

Dori Fern (00:04.088)

Welcome to Life Changing with Dori Fern, a podcast about who we are, where we're going, and what connects us. It's a show for people in progress at any stage. I didn't know what the hell I was doing, okay? Sounds like me as a college DJ. I was nervous about everything and then I was just like, nah, bring your curiosity in the room and be yourself. Like in a week time period, my whole entire life in New York changed. 

Dori Fern (00:35.054)

Today it's easy to find kimchis, kombuchas, and other once exotic foods in stores across America. But it was not so in 2010, when BK Swappers held its first event for ambitious food cooks to gather and trade such homemade goodies. It was two years after the stock market crash and fertile ground for this community of frugal food lovers to grow. 

Dori Fern (00:59.79)

By the time BK Swappers held its last event in 2016, food swaps had proliferated across the country and had been covered by mainstream outlets like the New York Times. Today's guest, Nicole Taylor, came out of that BK Swappers community. And that's where I met her. Nicole was more of a regular than I was, though, because when it started, the swap, I was already kind of jaded about New York City's food scene. 

Dori Fern (01:27.566)

I had tried to find a place for myself in the food media world after my daughter was born in 1996. I wrote about food trends of the day and covered the early Brooklyn restaurant boom in the late 1990s and early aughts. But I couldn't see getting a full -time job in food writing since the salaries sucked and wouldn't have paid for our childcare costs. you know, becoming a restaurant cook, which I also considered, that paid worse. It seemed everyone in those jobs came for money. 

Dori Fern (01:56.31)

or didn't have children. I was also turned off by how blindingly white this industry was. It did not seem representative of New York City's diversity at all. And I could have looked at this as an opportunity. I know that now, but I was stuck seeing myself as an outsider with no way in. And that's a big reason why I wanted to talk with Nicole Taylor, who despite seeing herself as an outsider too, did find her way in. 

Dori Fern (02:25.964)

and whether or not you follow the inner workings of food culture, this interview sheds light on the role timing, intuition, and sense of self play in our life paths. Here's my conversation with Nicole Taylor. So today we have Nicole Taylor on the show and Nicole is a James Beard Award nominated food writer. 

Dori Fern (02:51.918)

home cook, producer, and author of the very wonderful Watermelon and Redbirds, a cookbook for Juneteenth and Black Celebrations, which is the first cookbook from a major publisher to celebrate the holiday. In addition to her previous cookbooks, the Up South Cookbook and the last OG cookbook, Nicole has written for Rezzy, Food Print, Bon Appetit, The New York Times, and Food and Wine. She has been featured in the LA Times Today, Wall Street Journal, 

Dori Fern (03:21.582)

NBC News, Washington Post, NPR, and on BET. And the Today Show, I should say. Brooklyn Magazine named Nicole to its list of 100 influential people in Brooklyn culture, which is right and a big part of what I want to talk to you about. So I feel like I have this parallel relationship to you and your influentialness, Nicole Taylor. So welcome to the show today. 

Dori Fern (03:51.162)

my gosh, it's great to talk to you. Yeah, it's, I feel like there are very few people who like get me from the very beginning of me moving in this crazy city, New York. So I'm happy to talk to you today. And you know, the funny thing is I don't think we met very many times. I'm pretty sure it was at BK Swappers around, I don't know, 2010, 2011, not long after you got here from Atlanta. 

Dori Fern (04:19.95)

BK Swappers laid the foundation for today's diverse foodie culture, reaching well beyond its Brooklyn origins. Maybe that's one good byproduct of gentrification, that cultures and foodways can converge, connect, and regenerate into meaningful new communities. Yeah, it's so crazy. I moved here in 2008. And now when I reverse back and I'm talking to you, 

Dori Fern (04:48.3)

We literally were at the ground floor of a whole movement that rippled in small towns and big cities all throughout America, really all throughout the world, but definitely all throughout America, of food and community merging and entrepreneurship and small businesses and all of that. It's crazy to think how many people I connected with through BK Swapping. 

Dori Fern (05:17.986)

But this is also the same time that I got like totally immersed in food culture in New York and taught myself like what are the best restaurants in New York? Who are the food writers? Who's Ruth Reichel? Who is Adam Rappaport? Who is Jessica Harris? What are their books? Read all their articles. I didn't have an iPhone then. I had a paper MTA map. I would like print out my Yahoo directions before I left home. 

Dori Fern (05:47.06)

It was a time where I feel so energetic, so curious, so untainted, a time where the possibilities of who I could be and who I was becoming were endless. No matter how smart or skilled someone is, great achievements often start with a feeling, intuition and blind leaps. 

Dori Fern (06:13.614)

There's magic in trusting the unknown and having faith that what you don't yet know, you'll figure out. And such was the case for Nicole, who in 2009 started an interview podcast called Hot Grease that ran until 2013. In our talk, Nicole name checks her interview with Brooklyn Flea co -founder Eric Dembe. But it's worth noting that Dembe also co -founded Smorgasburg, the giant outdoor food and drink market showcasing Brooklyn's indie food scene. 

Dori Fern (06:41.806)

that now has locations in LA and Miami. Smorgasburg started in 2011, just one year after BK Swappers. So I'm thinking about the fact, and I was saying it to you before we went on air, that I did not know that you had, for all these years, you were ahead of the curve with podcasting. had a podcast for Heritage Radio Network called Hot Grease that you did for quite a while. 

Dori Fern (07:06.732)

You know, what's so funny is when I moved to New York, I worked for New Yorkers for Parks. I literally had an intuition about heritage because I took a sick day from New Yorkers for Parks that day. Cause I'm like, okay, I like this job, but they're not making me full time. I'm like, I gotta, gotta, I gotta figure out what to do. And so I used to get Ann Saxby's newsletter from Saxby Cheese Margaret's Rest In Peace, Ann Saxby. 

Dori Fern (07:36.302)

And I was like, wow, she has this podcast. I was listening to podcasts. Like I was listening to like News and Notes with Farah Jada and definitely KCRW. So I understood what a podcast was, you know? And so I saw that Ann was hosting one on Here to Grow Your Network, which is a podcast and studio in the back of Roberta's. Roberta's for anyone listening who doesn't know is a... 

Dori Fern (08:04.184)

hipster pizza spot. Well, hipster pizza spot. Air quotes, because I don't even think they're hipster anymore, right? Like me, right? I used to be like the black hipster. I'm like, anyway. Spirit told me, pick up the phone and call Heritage. I picked up the phone and I was like, hey, I want a picture show idea about what's happening in the Book of Food scene right now. I want to focus on 

Dori Fern (08:31.0)

primarily black and brown voices, but more so I just want to bring some different flavor and talk to people who are doing cool stuff in the food scene. They were like, okay, can you come in such and such date? And the rest is history. Literally, that's the day that my food media career took off. I have a photo of me sitting with Jack Inslee at the back of Roberta's talking about what my show would be. And my husband, I brought him along with me. 

Dori Fern (09:00.654)

And he took that photo. And that is literally what I like to say that's the date that food media took off of me. And that was all on gut. Like in like 24 hours, like in a week time period, my whole entire life in New York changed. What can you tell me about podcasting from your experience? What did you learn? I didn't know what the hell I was doing. OK. Yeah. Sounds like me as a college DJ. That was my experience. 

Dori Fern (09:30.306)

fun looking album covers. I was a blues radio DJ. No, I didn't know what I was doing. I remember Jack Hansley told me he was like, just be yourself. was like, you know how Wendy Williams is herself? He was like, yeah, bring that in. Yeah. just need to be yourself. There you go. I used to be so nervous. I was nervous about my voice. I was nervous about like my grammar. I was nervous about everything. And then I was just like, no, just bring your curiosity in the room and be yourself. 

Dori Fern (10:00.238)

Right? And then, you know, so many of those episodes, 160 plus episodes, I think I have producer credits on of like a few specials and things that they hosted there. They still hold up. I mean, I had Karen Washington on like way before, like she became a national figure on Community Guards. Michael Tweedy, Fannie Geerson, like. 

Dori Fern (10:28.108)

When Doe was just starting, I mean, now she owns FanFan Dona. Listen, I forget I had Brooklyn Flea guys on. Eric Dembe. Yep, had Eric Dembe on it. You name it. Jane Lanier. Piecore, I forgot about Piecore, on there. Kathy Irway had a show after me. Kathy was on there. You name it. People from the South, people in New York. It holds up. I was talking about 

Dori Fern (10:57.286)

Juneteenth, way before people were talking about Juneteenth. Nicole's Hot Grease podcast opened many doors. It led to book deals and an executive editor role at Thrillist and becoming a contributor at outlets, including the New York Times. But despite this mainstream success, Nicole still sees herself as an outsider in the food world she helped to shape. So I'm always, always at the core of everything I do. 

Dori Fern (11:26.144)

is activism. Like I have a degree in community health education. So that word was always work that I knew I was going to be doing for the rest of my life. So being this person now that's kind of evolved into being in the mix of the machine is not a natural thing for me, right? It's not natural for me to have a business manager and my business manager saying to me, you cannot do this event. 

Dori Fern (11:56.046)

for zero money, you need to ask them for $5 ,000. I'm like, what? That's the sign. I'm like, but my gosh, I love this organization. How do you feel about that? I feel two things. I feel two things. I feel a responsibility to my family. I have a five year old son who I don't want him to have a ton of student loans like I had. 

Dori Fern (12:25.998)

want to be able to help him and support him if he decides he wants to be an entrepreneur or if he decides to purchase his first house at 25 and I can help him with the down payment. So I want him to have an easier life in terms of being a young adult. So that helps me to be like, okay, yeah, sure. I need to take this $5 ,000. I got to up my rates. 

Dori Fern (12:55.942)

That is the thing that over the last three months I've had to say out loud. I'm worth this. So in other words, that makes sense to you. How would it feel to just say, I am worth this for me? Sure. I'm getting around to that. That's so funny because I was. 

Dori Fern (13:19.978)

I'm updating my website and my husband was like, your bio is just so short. You really don't talk about all the things that you've done. I literally a few days ago was digging through my Google docs and I found some articles about Brooklyn's zinefists. We talk about this indie kind of French culture that I've always been a part of and I'm now realizing like, 

Dori Fern (13:46.702)

yeah, girl, you've always kind of been on the outskirts. all tell stories about ourself like they're absolute facts. My story is that I don't exactly fit anywhere in my family, my friend groups, my career, in my marriage. Like I'm a visitor who travels through my circles rather than a resident who lives there. If that makes any sense. Like for most of us, I've come to understand. 

Dori Fern (14:14.51)

that much about this narrative stems from my childhood. But what felt like a deep truth for little Dori frankly helps 58 -year -old me not at all. I'm happy to say that through therapy and coaching and practice, I've made a lot of progress naming it, noticing it, and letting it go. Which is all to say that while I identify with Nicole's feeling of outsider -ness, 

Dori Fern (14:42.316)

I also wanted to understand more about where it comes from and how true is it. I really think that is something that has always attracted me to you because I've heard you say this a lot about feeling like an outsider. It's a narrative that there were approaches that you made that didn't you didn't have models for necessarily around you. But I have noticed personally that 

Dori Fern (15:10.208)

my feeling like an outsider is not necessarily a fact of outsidersness. It's something that I bring sometimes as a wall around myself. so your response to that question was assuming that the outside world sees you as an outsider. And I'm not so sure in the food business that people do. People make an assumption a lot of times that I'm just one note, right? 

Dori Fern (15:37.654)

Like all I know is about, you know, Southern food. But like I'm a serious food restaurant person. Like I can tell you about Adila. I can tell you about their tripe. People who love tripe love that tripe. Exactly. I can tell you about iconic Brooklyn restaurants. I'm not new to this. Like I've done the work and I've done the work in a way that people who know me know. 

Dori Fern (16:07.598)

But I really didn't start making money that was respectable and food until 2019. 

Dori Fern (16:18.476)

What's something that happened in your childhood that you think of from time to time that you think is like, this is me. This is the thing that made me. 

Dori Fern (16:31.054)

I had a mentor and I wouldn't call her teacher. She ran a program at our high school. Her name is Beverly Johnson. I think Dr. Beverly Johnson now. She was a black woman from Athens, had gone away to college, came back and she was running, it was called jobs for Georgia graduates. So was teaching. 

Dori Fern (16:58.914)

teenagers and people in high school like how to prepare for post high school world, like how to write a resume, like it was a bunch of different stuff. And we had a really cool bond and one of the things she told me early on, she's like, there's something about you that's really special and if you remember this, you are gonna go far because it's what makes you you. 

Dori Fern (17:27.446)

And she said, you don't do what everybody else does. You're your own person. You dress differently, you think differently, you're reading differently. And she was like, that's your superpower. A lot of my friends would like tease me like, you crazy. You're doing this. Why are interested in this? I was wearing Birkenstocks like back in high school and nobody in my friend. 

Dori Fern (17:53.326)

was wearing Birkenstocks and I remember people saying, you got the Jesus shoes on. And Ms. Johnson, she gave me permission and said, no, you don't follow the crowd. That's what's gonna push you to another level. And I had to be what, 17, maybe 18 years old. I remember that one thing. That changed my entire life. 

Dori Fern (18:20.27)

You know, one thing I realized that I don't know about you and that I listened to quite a lot of old podcast episodes of you being interviewed and interviews and I didn't see very much about your parents, what they did. Who are your parents? And do you have siblings? Don't know any of this about you. Yeah, wow. Yeah, it's funny because I've talked about my mom a little bit. My mom is, she'll be 70. 

Dori Fern (18:49.774)

two days before Juneteenth. She worked for more than 30 years at a chicken poultry processing spot in Athens, Georgia. My mom is a very stylish, funny, strong woman who, life was always complicated for her, you know? She is one of four. 

Dori Fern (19:17.108)

and my two aunts and my late uncle, none of them have kids. I grew up in the house with them, a house that my grandfather left for them when he was tragically murdered. Never met him, never met my grandparents. so I, Adrian and I, my husband, we joke and I say I'm the golden child because as my aunt said, she's like, man, you saved our lives. 

Dori Fern (19:45.718)

I never knew what she meant and now I get older, I realize like, you know, so much tragedy had happened with them. And I think I came along and gave them some joy. I do understand that now. So my mom was in Athens. My father and her, I would say, I guess I was a love child. He never lived in Athens. My family, his folks. 

Dori Fern (20:12.718)

are from Athens, so I guess, you know, he was visiting and boom, I happened. I met him five times in my life, like physically met him. He passed away in 2015. And then I discovered I had, I think I always knew I had a sibling, but I have a brother and two sisters that I reconnected with around that time, so almost 10 years ago. 

Dori Fern (20:42.286)

I have a sister and aunts that live in Philly and a brother who's incarcerated. Life sentence, crazily. We communicate a lot. And so he was closest to my dad. My father lived in Chicago most of his life. Very stylish man, very cultured man with a lot of kids that probably didn't have the best relationships with. 

Dori Fern (21:11.83)

Yeah. Your brother who's incarcerated, what's his name? His name is Jarell. Jarell. What does your relationship with Jarell give you? Like, what does it bring to your life? You know, it brings a sense of wonder and curiosity because he is the person who grew up closest. 

Dori Fern (21:39.022)

physically closest to our father, right? It's funny because he'll send me a book and say, you know, I'm reading 1619 and I'm like, Nicole Hannah Jones. I was like, she lives in my neighborhood. so it's interesting because to communicate with someone that's incarcerated, it can be very laborious, right? Because you have to. 

Dori Fern (22:07.126)

It's hard to be like, I've had a rough three months to a person that's incarcerated. Right. Have you met him in person? Never met in person. So we email, they have an email system. So yeah, you know, we talk, he is going through a, there's kind of a, what do want to call it? Rehab university program. 

Dori Fern (22:37.122)

very structured with a university that's in Chicago. forget the name of it. So they have a website, he sent me stuff on it. so I get to see their syllabus of what they're reading. So that's always very interesting because he's well read and knows what's happening in the world and who has the ability to Google what I'm doing out here. 

Dori Fern (23:03.47)

I think he's very interested in like, wow, okay, so you write about food and understanding what that means. It's interesting to communicate with someone who has spent pretty much over half of their lives in car sobriety. How old is he? He is a year older than me. So he's 47? Yeah. 

Dori Fern (23:36.11)

We recorded this episode prior to Juneteenth and my plan was to have this live before the holiday so I could promote Nicole's wonderful Watermelon and Redbirds cookbook for Juneteenth and Black celebrations. All of Nicole is here in this 2022 book, the proud Black Southerner who calls Athens, Georgia home, the frugal Brooklyn transplant who swaps her homesteading know -how so you too can have a larderful. 

Dori Fern (24:02.742)

of syrups and sauces, spice mixes and pickles at the ready. And here too is the maybe outsider who writes in her inimitably, untraditionally authentic way that makes everyone feel welcome and invited to the table. It was Nicole who urged me to trust my gut and take my time readying this new season and staying true to my vision for it. 

Dori Fern (24:26.734)

Even though Juneteenth is past, it's still summer celebration season and I still think you should know about this groundbreaking cookbook. Note, Nicole's audio gave us trouble on this part, but stick with it. I was reading your incredible book, Watermelon and Redbirds, cookbook for Juneteenth and Black Celebrations. And I... 

Dori Fern (24:56.012)

have to tell you, and I am not just blowing smoke up your skirt. I love this book and I expected a good cookbook. wasn't that I knew it was gonna be good and I was interested to read it, but I connected to it in so many levels. So on one hand, I absolutely see Nicole Taylor, the Southern black woman who is 

Dori Fern (25:25.804)

like going to bring you Juneteenth and its traditions and elements of black celebrations writ large into this book. And you did that and you did an amazing job at that. And I've heard you talk about the black struggle into black joy. And I felt that and I felt you as somebody who came to New York and who experienced the food world and this person that is a bit of an outsider. I felt that too. 

Dori Fern (25:55.884)

And you know what I was left with at the end of it? A sense that I have when I go to see a really amazing museum exhibit where you're seeing things, but it is not so much each of the individual things, great though they might be, it's the way they are bigger than the sum of their parts. And what I was left with was like, this is freedom. This is freedom. Like I felt that so deeply from that book. 

Dori Fern (26:25.164)

You know, I'm getting choked up. And then just on like a really basic level, amazing recipes that I am absolutely going to make. So. Well, that means a lot coming from you because I, they're very, and literally I told Aja the other day, was like, yeah, there are very few people that I let come into the kitchen with me when I'm cooking. I have to say you were at my house for brunch. 

Dori Fern (26:52.494)

And literally, like people who know me know me like only a few people get to come in and make something. I'm honored. I'll kind of let you load a dishwasher up, but even with that, like, my gosh. You don't want me loading up your dishwasher. I'm actually terrible at that. But that means a lot coming from you. Because man, it's it's it's. This wasn't just, my gosh, just create some recipes and beautiful. There are so many. 

Dori Fern (27:19.778)

twists and turns in the production of this book, in the writing of this book. I took a lot of care. It was super important for me to do all the things that you said, right? I wanted to create something if no one ever cooked one recipe that they could read it from front to back and use that auto to you, right? So what are you doing now? Like what's going on for you? What can you talk about? I know you always have things going on. 

Dori Fern (27:47.496)

Hopefully I'll have a big announcement soon. I've been, you know, figuring out how to tell the story of home and how one can create home no matter where they are. And, you know, how I did it when I left New York for two years and went back home, which is a physical place, but how do you recreate that no matter where you are? feeling. 

Dori Fern (28:16.554)

What does home look like for someone? What does it feel like? Who's at the table? What's the food you're serving? So that's what the next cookbook is going to be about. And I'm excited because some people want to see it's an entertaining book. I'm like, no. The more I keep giving these clues and listening to what is this next book, 

Dori Fern (28:43.822)

It's becoming crystal clear what it's about. Yeah, it's a crystal, but it's about like how one defines home and who's at the table. It's been said that the only thing that remains of us when we're gone is stories. We are our stories. What do you hope your story will be? I my story to be about generosity. And how I was generous to people and a helper. 

Dori Fern (29:14.028)

to people around me in ways that transform both of us. That's what I want my story to be, not the Cold War, not even my son, you know? I want it to be about my generosity. That is, if I can have that as a legacy, I'm with you. I am with you. 

Dori Fern (29:38.68)

Thank you, Nicole Taylor. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me. 

Dori Fern (29:47.5)

I love that talk. We went so deep. I learned so much about her and I love her even more now. 

Dori Fern (29:58.05)

This episode of Life Changing with Dori Fern was produced and edited by the great Anne Pope. Anne was also, as it happens, a producer on Nicole's Hot Grease podcast. And no, I did not know that when I met Anne, which happened after I recorded this interview and which explains why. Because I was producing it then. The sound goes in and out at parts. would have never let that happen. Anyway. 

Dori Fern (30:27.488)

Music is Cool Jazzy Bass and Vibraphone and Orange Blues by M33 Project. I'll be back in a couple of weeks with another life -changing conversation. Thank you so much for listening.